Episode 111 - Brian Gerstner

Erik Martinez: Here's something I've been thinking about. The agency owners I talk to right now, myself included, can tell you exactly what they need to do to move their business forward. We just aren't doing it. The newly released Agency Core 2026 research puts a number on it. Only about 17% of agency leaders are following through on the direction they themselves say they need to take.

Today, I have Brian Gerstner back on the show to talk about the findings from the research. Brian is the president of White Label IQ, and he's one of the people behind Agency Core, an attitudinal research study of small and mid-sized agencies conducted with [00:01:00] Susan Buyer of Audience Audit. Brian and I sat down to talk through what the 26 data is showing, why so many of us are stuck in the gap between knowing and doing, and what the agencies that aren't stuck have figured out.

Brian, welcome to the show.

Brian Gerstner: Hey, thanks for having me Erik.

Erik Martinez: It's great to have you back, man. I have so much fun every time we talk and I am looking forward to learning about what you guys have discovered in, the agency Core 2026 research. And I know this is kind of hot off the presses, and when we go to publish this episode it'll be officially live.

So, I'm loving the fact that I get a little sneak preview into the data.

Brian Gerstner: Right, I only wish my partner, Susan Byer was on here. She's really the brains of a lot of the research and has run a lot of it. From my perspective, I have a lot of hands on the ground experience in running an agency, how I see and interpret the data.

Erik Martinez: So, for the listening audience who doesn't know you yet. Give us the quick synopsis of who you are, what you do, and then we'll jump in.

Brian Gerstner: I am [00:02:00] the president of White Label IQ. We are a, AI automation development and design agency. Our core focus is supporting agencies. You know, White Label itself was born within an agency to solve a problem. That kind of classic scenario, and it grew up and became its own company, continued that focus 'cause working with agencies is very different than end clients.

I love the relationship that I can have with agency owners when we've worked together with 'em. That's always been part of what's fueled me. Susan Byer and I, started Agency Core. She had started the research a bit earlier and I participated very aggressive,

I was very eager, and she came up and was like, Hey, let's take this to the next level. And we really opened it up as a nonprofit. We want it to be non-biased. In doing this, we're really just open sourcing all of the data, sharing it with other agency leaders, just looking for them to provide analysis into it.

I think it's really powerful when no one really owns it and we can really just let the data out there. And really the thing that excites me too is it removes a lot of the bias. [00:03:00] Because it brings in a lot of people who just care about agency folks.

Erik Martinez: That's Awesome, and I think having been an accidental agency owner for a fair number of years now, this community is a lot of fun to work with, and there's some great people and there's some interesting challenges that we're facing as a group and the effort to serve our clients.

So Brian, Let's talk a little bit about Agency Core as a concept before we dive into, the meat of the 2026. I know that there's a number of research studies that get produced every year by agency consultants. What specific gap were you guys trying to fill with the Agency Core research, and why do you think it's so important right this second?

Brian Gerstner: Just seeing a big gap within like the small to midsize agency segment. A lot of the research I was getting and reading, it didn't really apply directly all the time to the agencies that I'm working with and running myself. There's just this bubble, you know, from my own experience being in an agency, [00:04:00] like you're doing everything.

You've got your group of folks you're working in, you don't always see how other people are doing things. Or how they're making decisions or even how the broader market is moving 'cause you're, in your niche there. And even then, a lot of times when I was participating in research. Being in the marketing segment, I'd get excluded from it. So, we really wanted to give people a look inside of how agencies are successful. And Susan Byers amazing and the attitudinal studies that she runs, and not just categorizing people by what they do, but truly by the types of attitudes that they have and really being able to compare like who's successful and who's struggling? How are they winning? A lot of the information is things we already know, but the data really just kind of drives it home. And, this year was, really interesting when we break down the attitudes.

Erik Martinez: That's amazing and I'm glad that you guys are filling that particular niche in our industry. Tell me, what were you really trying to learn in 2026? What was the [00:05:00] premise that you were pursuing in the research? And then, do you think the research confirmed it? Or did you see something very different than what you were expecting?

Brian Gerstner: Coming through 2025, the data wasn't very optimistic. The big findings were just huge drops in optimism within the agency space. I always felt like, AI is the elephant in the room and it created a lot of uncertainty.

What does our future look like? What's going on? And people were experimenting and a lot of failures and how AI was being deployed. So, we talked around and the idea was, what do you see the future looking like? Now that we've got through 2025, what is the impact AI's gonna have?

What are we expecting from people within our agency and really, who is confident? When we talk about what does the future look like who within those attitudinal segments feels like they have a strong understanding and optimism about the future and who is really still, deep in the [00:06:00] uncertainty?

Erik Martinez: What was the big aha in 2026? Can say, Wow, that is really coming clearly through the data and this is what it means for agencies. Or, what was the thing that totally surprised by.

Brian Gerstner: I think one of the major takeaways is, we asked what is it that you need to do to be successful? And there was very clear understanding of what needs to be done. And when we ask people, what are you doing? Massive gap. People, they're sitting there going, we know what we need to do. But, there was only about 17% of people who are actually following through on the strategic direction that they know that they need to execute. I think there's only like 44% were even partially following through on the strategic goals that they are explicitly telling us that they know what their next steps are.

Brian Gerstner: So there's just this you know, stuck in the weeds kind of moment happening. Where, [00:07:00] people just aren't yet taking the action that they know they need to do.

Erik Martinez: What do you think is the driver of that? The technology's so new and it's changing so fast, it's hard and overwhelming to keep up, or is it a systemic problem? Meaning, hey, we don't have the change management processes. Or necessarily the people skills within our organizations to manage this transformation in a more strategic way.

What is the underlying challenge that you're seeing?

Brian Gerstner: This is where I have to take my Agency Core hat off, and I put on the, here's what I see as, an agency owner. Because Agency Core is intended to just tell the story of the data and not necessarily be opinionated. AI adoption is not fast, easy, quick, or, you know, there's tremendous failures.

We've done a lot of projects where we've built them and then when we take them into adoption, the adoption is really low, slow or it's not happening. And, the [00:08:00] question is not that the study isn't showing that it's necessarily AI adoption that's causing the problems. But I see it as just, we're so busy right now.

I would say we're moving faster than ever before. There's so much change going on that we're constantly having to shift gears and there's all this fatigue from the degree of uncertainty. So, because of that, it's been really hard to grasp on to these larger, more important strategic goals and really execute them with commitment.

It's really hard to slow down because to work on the things that are important and really make strategical shifts, you have to slow down. You have to focus. You have to take the 20 things that you're trying to do, and you have to get them down to three to five.

And that's a huge struggle. It's always been a struggle, but because things are moving so fast and data is hitting us faster than ever before. I think that struggle has just grown. I take back to like, I think Drew said in Drew McClellan from Agency Management Institute, in the [00:09:00] last Baba conference, he coined it for me.

This is not a storm, this is the new climate. And people are still adjusting to that climate.

Erik Martinez: Yeah, I think that's true. I listened to, one of my favorite podcasts is Your Everyday AI with Jordan Wilson, and he had an episode recently where he said, is AI making me dumb? and what he meant by that, he addresses this issue of fatigue from the standpoint of he's playing with AI tools 10 to 12 hours a day.

He says, one of the things I have to remind myself to do is to take a project and do it myself from beginning to end. In order to remain sharp about how to do those things. Because the AI is offloading some of that stuff, and we're pushing so hard to get AI to offload some of that stuff.

If we pivot into the idea that, the 2026 research drew out three leader mindsets in the data. How did those mindsets [00:10:00] tie into this concept of change fatigue, only 17% of agencies actually executing on their strategic vision. How do these mindsets play into that data? Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Brian Gerstner: So once again, this is me as an agency owner. Let me give, just a really quick snapshot on the agency, attitudinal segments. As Susan went through this data, these segments were not predetermined in any way. The data themselves presented the groupings that we had there.

We have confident differentiators. These are folks who, self-reported they have a niche. They are well known. They have authority in an area, they've been able to articulate through marketing. And by saying no to clients, a really strong focus in what they do. We have the, AI, opportunity.

This is really about momentum. They're chasing AI. They're like, Hey, we've got to keep up. We've got to adopt. We've got to keep [00:11:00] up with all the change. It's really a lot about velocity. But the concern inside that group is where are they going? They're going really fast, but where are they going?

And then there's the uncertain pressure group where there's still a lot more hesitation as far as executing on the next steps. And maybe not necessarily having a very clear picture of what direction to go or how to make these changes happen. When we look at change fatigue that, uncertain, pressured group is experiencing it the most.

In some ways, and this is just my personal interpretation, but some people, they haven't really made the change either you're waiting around, just to see what happens or you're not sure how to do it, or you're sitting here going, I don't know if I want to pivot this time. There's just a lot of, fatigue in how things are changing and, you know, do I want to continue into this new climate?

The difference between that group and the AI opportunity group is the AI opportunity group is very optimistic. They're [00:12:00] like, we can figure this out. Okay, we're gonna move fast, but we know how to figure this out and we got it. So there's just a lot about the optimism.

Brian Gerstner: I mean, it's a challenge, but they're gonna do it. They think they can figure it out and they're running and they're trying to master it and keep up with it. And there's so much change. But the question always comes back to, what is the goal that you're managing the change too?

Brian Gerstner: Where are you going with it? If it's just mastering AI personally, there's a window here where that is going to be a differentiator, but in a year or two, if not already, AI is becoming table stakes for most people at this point. Just kind of the level of adoption and how expert you wanna get into it.

So, AI, I don't believe personally is going to be a differentiator that will really sustain an agency in the future. It'll be like electricity. Everybody's got a piece of it. The third group is that confident differentiator. So, these are folks that they've put the work in Over the years they've said no, they've let [00:13:00] opportunity pass 'cause it wasn't a right fit.

They've invested, done the research, went in the circles. And they're really good at healthcare. They're really good at a certain demographic, really have demonstrated authority, and they've got up and they speak and they do thought leadership in a specific area, and they're not very worried right now.

They're sitting in a position where they feel very confident. They don't feel threatened by AI in general. They're leveraging AI, but it's not dominating their outputs. And when you look at change management, they're the ones who have mastering it the most because the change opportunistic people that the AI adopters, they're not just leaning into massive amounts of change or being reluctant about it.

They're just like, we see it, we're using it. We're not gonna let it dominate us. We put this work in, we're authorities. We're gonna continue to be authorities. That's why people come to us. They don't come to us because of AI. [00:14:00] AI is just another tool that we use. So they're handling change a lot better because they've already been able to establish a much greater focus than the other two attitudinal segments.

Erik Martinez: What I'm hearing you say is AI is just part of their ecosystem already.

Brian Gerstner: Yep.

Erik Martinez: Where the others are either aggressively trying to make it the point. Or, to a certain extent they're trying to avoid it because it feels overwhelming at the moment. Is there a distinction in the research in these groups? You know, I'm looking at the data that you sent me and the groups are roughly equal in size, but within the groups, is there any distinction by agency size or is that also, relatively evenly distributed within the groups?

Brian Gerstner: I don't have those statistics in front, but in general, what I see is it's not different by size. It's not different by revenue. It's not really different by demographics of region. A lot of it has to do with the attitude [00:15:00] people have and the understanding the way they're engaging it.

So, the demographics don't seem to play into it. And when we're surveying people, there's really no difference between male, female age, ect. It seems to be pretty steady.

Erik Martinez: That's interesting. Because I think, that organizations that have a little more of a technical orientation are making some headway a little bit quicker than organizations that are not. It's not always true, but that seems to be my general, observation

This diverges from the study a bit in the sense of the topic, but what I do see is that coming from a technical background, we're used to that process of taking very complex things and breaking them into many, many, tiny pieces. And as I'm seeing actual execution and adoption, being able to apply the AI within an organization, it does require understanding the process, breaking the process down, and being able to, approach it

Brian Gerstner: in a very kind of modular way. And to be able to [00:16:00] get approval, and then move through it. Then have that loop where you're going back, assessing it, reviewing it, Q&Aing. So that process, flywheel, associated with how it works is really critical. And I think that's baked into a lot of technical shops, just kind of the way they understand how the world works.

Whereas, a lot of other shops, are able to use AI, but what ends up happening is you're trying to do too many things at once. You're trying to ask it to solve, too large of an issue and then the end result is never quite where you want it to be. So you kind of lose trust in being able to

solve a bigger problem. Now, I think that's perfectly fine. You just need to, once again, be able to ask AI to do very specific things for you if you want to develop consistency in the outputs. And at the end of the day too, as a technical shop, we're a lot more used to managing large data sets. Organizing, categorizing, database structures [00:17:00] and etc.

That ability to organize and manage large sets of data is really an advantage for us.

Erik Martinez: I think this is actually a fairly decent segue into the next question. Which is really about, the agency leaders being able to identify the right strategy within their organization or for their clients. Whether that's for pipeline client revenue growth, reputation.

It still feels like, and you tell me if this is what the data is truly saying, that agencies are still inwardly focused on AI and not necessarily client focused on AI, if that makes sense.

What does the data tell us about that?

Brian Gerstner: Agency Core isn't necessarily addressing that question directly.

But, my own personal experience is that, it feels like a lot of agencies are still honestly just fumbling around trying to figure out which tool to use. Whereas end clients have moved on and they're just like, [00:18:00] we get it.

You use AI, that's fine. We don't care. Just own what you give us. Don't give us your slop. I don't want any additional risk from what you're handing us. Make sure whatever you're turning over to us is better. Cause you're using AI, so your work should be better than it was before.

Just make sure that that's what's happening and that you own it. So when you talk about inward focus, as far as application of AI, I do see agencies really focusing on trying to build efficiency in bringing up their team, finding things they can really use AI effectively.

They're not necessarily deploying AI solutions within their client spaces. They're still deploying it and, turning over the output the same way that we always have been. So I'm not seeing really AI deployments really cross that agency to client boundary yet in an aggressive way.

Erik Martinez: Along that topic then, what is it that in the study you find actionable on this whole concept [00:19:00] of strategy within the organization.

Brian Gerstner: Niching down, being able to establish a true differentiation in your company. A focus in what you've being able to provide. As I said earlier, that particular demographic, when we look at the pushback clients are giving on the fees that we're charging.

When we look at the overall optimism. Agencies that have demonstrated a true differentiation in their markets. I mean, we're talking like 40 points in optimism and that's huge.

The thing that really excites me about AI is I believe it's really putting the focus back on the fundamentals. You can't hide behind an SEL report that shows you got 30 back links. No one's impressed by that anymore. It's back to the fundamentals of what is the actual outcome?

Do you own the outcome that you're selling me? I think we're getting back to that again. Whereas, over these past decade or so with the internet and AI, there's so many specific [00:20:00] channel agencies. And that whole agency of record, that own strategy in the past, that model kind of disappeared.

So you've got this really fragmented approach that's really kind of, not served our end clients well, because of the fragmented strategies that are deploying. I think we're getting back to a place where, agencies can once again own the output in a more holistic, strategic way. I just see it coming back to fundamentals.

Erik Martinez: Yeah. You know, AI is an issue, but what I'm hearing you say, is if you are well niched. You have deep expertise in a category or maybe a couple categories. You're strongly differentiated, then the AI issue is less of an issue. That's what the through line of all this data seems to be saying. And I've had conversations with Susan because I've existed in this world where, I have some of these challenges of, how do I effectively market my business? How do I [00:21:00] differentiate myself in the marketplace?

Being able to put that table stake in the ground and then stick to it.

Seems to be a recurring theme. Over the years I've been attending the Baba conferences and talking to folks like you and Susan and to Drew that if we don't do those things, eventually we get generalized away. And it's interesting because I came out of the specialty e-commerce retail space.

For many years that was where my background was. And I can tell you one of the things that we've seen in that particular space, it's true there too. This isn't just agencies. It's also specialty retailers or retailers in general, having to become more specialized. And there is a ton of private equity money that's going into buying all these small specialty retailers and trying to roll up a category.

There's some operational efficiency, but there's also the ability for them to compete with the marketplaces in those categories. And that's one [00:22:00] of the changes in the market. I think we're seeing some of those same kinds of things happening in the agency space. Whereas, one of my biggest fears is that if you don't differentiate yourself, the bigger agencies, as this AI technology becomes more ubiquitous and embraced within an organization. The bigger agencies will have the ability, like the marketplaces in the retail segment to own a specific category. And that's, I think, probably the real risk and opportunity for niche specialty agencies.

Brian Gerstner: Because then once there's a category has been created, it creates a lot of opportunity for those micro niches where you can really open it up. I mean, the classic is Uber. Or even like Google, they're not interested in the nooks and crannies.They're serving broad population, so it does open up a lot of area where people really want authority that relates to them.

I do believe, there's never been more opportunity than ever before. It's, just [00:23:00] not as easy to see.

Erik Martinez: It's not as easy to see 'cause there's a lot of noise in the data

that we're looking at, and there's a lot of other things that get in the way. Whether that is our own belief systems or what our clients are telling us, or what we think our clients are telling us. I think all of those things are true.

Brian Gerstner: And I think one of the things I'm experiencing too, and this once again is my own fear, but the current value propositions that we have and kind of how we go to market. I believe they're changing. So, in my case, in those three attitudinal segments, I, I don't believe that anybody has to belong to one entirely.

A lot of people will straddle over multiple. You know, we do the AI opportunity segment. You know, I do believe we're in there being tech. We're very aggressive into following and keeping up and very optimistic that we can. But, what that means is the value proposition we're trying to get to is something that our end clients don't necessarily want yet.

We're still selling like our bread and butter. What has got us here [00:24:00] and what we're trying to get to aggressively doesn't necessarily have market adoption yet. So there's this gap between where we are and where we're going and, financially, that's difficult.

Also it does mean that people are not asking for what you're bringing to market, but you really are out there prophesizing and describing and really trying to sell it and educate, what the potential is. And that's a much harder sell than somebody who already knows what they want.

Erik Martinez: We've been through this before, right? The modern day of websites. Today I think, most people would agree that having a robust, interesting website is important to their business. But I could take you back 25 years ago where that was not true. And it took,10 ish years for people to really realize, oh, this is important. And now you have a very high rate of adoption and I think AI is going through that curve. I think the biggest challenge that we're [00:25:00] facing right now is that the tech is changing faster than that rate of adoption can catch up.

And that is one of the challenges that I think people are feeling right now.

Brian Gerstner: Because of that, I think the end reason is that it's hard to demonstrate return on investment. Sustained return on investment.

Erik Martinez: I think that's true. I do think that comes a little bit down to, understanding your goals and your mission and, I know the amount of hours and time I've been putting in and I'm still waiting for the return on investment. I think it will come.

Brian Gerstner: And that too because, a lot of times we're just solving problems that don't exist.

Erik Martinez: For sure. Let's move into this last section of the agency core research for 2026. So, if agencies are struggling, you know, the ones that who are doing the best, are the really well-defined, have a high niche, high expertise quotient in a very specific industry. What is the prescription for everybody else?

What are the one or two or three things that they should be focused [00:26:00] on to start moving down a curve of being that confident, well positioned, well niched agency? What should they do first, second, and third in your opinion, Brian, based on the research.

Brian Gerstner:

The first is, get out there, shake hands, meet people, speak on the topics. Be a real thought leader. Don't just write an article and put it out there, but get out in front of people. Share what you know, be helpful and just be human in a much more aggressive way. Get out from behind your Zoom camera and all your webinars and actually talk to people and find out what the real problems are and be that helping authority.

AI has, if anything, the value proposition into actual human trust and engagement is in my opinion, growing. AI is what's going to make us human again. 'Cause so much trust is being lost. Number two, yes, build efficiencies. Make sure that as you are [00:27:00] using AI you are understanding how it can really bring efficiencies, but you're still owning the output.

So, make sure that you're looking at your workflows, redefining them, and bringing AI in ways that creates efficiencies. That helps your people deliver a better product. Because we know that end clients are saying, we expect more from you now. Number three, get your data together. Get all the stuff that exists in your head.

Sit there with a recorder and just talk it through. What you believe in. How you work. What are your workflows? What does your audience look like? The research that you're doing. Start collecting your data and putting it somewhere and make it accessible to the models. If you don't have good data, that's yours.

You're no different than the agency next to you that's also using AI. Sustained success will come from having good proprietary data layers that you can lay over [00:28:00] AI, and, I have a lot of opinions on that.

Erik Martinez: So, as we kind of start to close on this topic, and I really appreciate all the time and thought and that we've just gotten a real teeny tiny glimpse into what this research is talking about. If you are the agency that's sitting in the, opportunity bracers, or the pressured in uncertain group, what's the one thing that you would have them do today to start changing the trajectory?

Because we talked about three things and there's a lot of things, but what's the one thing that they need to do?

Brian Gerstner: Just stop trying to be everything to everyone. It is classic, right? I think that's been a mantra ever since I got into the space. But, the data is showing more than ever before. That if you cannot demonstrate an authority position. You're gonna lose footing because

AI has established a level of good that a lot of people are satisfied with. But, as an agency, if you really want to, drive strategic [00:29:00] outcomes for your clients, you're gonna have to focus. So, the AI opportunity bracers, you're moving fast, but where are you going? Do you have an actual clear destination as to where you're trying to get to so quickly? And for the uncertain and pressured, you really need to double down and not just say that you're focused in an area. Writing up a plan in your back room and sharing it with everybody internally.

Doesn't niche you down. What does is getting out there, talking to people, demonstrating that authority and other people saying that this is what you're really good at. And that means you have to actually, walk the talk in a much more aggressive way because AI has eroded so much trust.

You're gonna have to get out there and talk to people, and you're gonna have to demonstrate that you really know this area. And then word will spread.

Erik Martinez: I think you're right. Building that, trust quotient and then doubling down on it is a really critical step. And it's a lot of hard work. it's not an overnight transition. [00:30:00] It takes time and intensity and, you said this in the last podcast episode that we did together, that you are working harder than before.

Brian Gerstner: Yeah,

Erik Martinez: I know. I'm totally feeling that, I'm working harder than I was before in order to see that future.

Brian Gerstner: I thought I was working hard then!

Erik Martinez: Right. Yeah.it, it's accelerating the pace and it is creating that fatigue and you do need to take some time to step away and think about your business and slow down. And, you know, I used to tell this to my softball players all the time. Slow down to speed up.

Brian Gerstner: yep.

Erik Martinez: Brian, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing some of the results of the 2026 Agency Core survey.

I really appreciate it.

Brian Gerstner: No, I appreciate it too. Thank you, Erik.

Erik Martinez: Brian said something that's gonna stay with me. He said, "AI is what's going to make us human again because there's so much trust being lost with clients and consumers because of AI use." His prescription was simple, get out from behind your Zoom camera, talk to people in person and [00:31:00] demonstrate that you know what you are talking about.

I'll be honest, that's the part I find the hardest. But making time to go to events, picking up the phone and having a conversation, that's the work I keep putting off because I have a long list of things to do.

Yet the data is telling us that's the work that actually moves the needle because when you are talking to someone, you can show how you think and how you differentiate yourself. There's a 40-point optimism gap between agencies that have demonstrated true differentiation and the rest of agencies that have not.

So if you take one thing from this episode, pick the one area you want to be known for, and this week do one thing that puts you in a conversation with someone in that space that you want to talk to. That's it for today's episode of the Digital Velocity podcast. Thank you for listening and have a fantastic day.

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